The Watchtower takes the fragments of what is known regarding the purpose of man, fills in what is not known, then expects its followers to make sense of it. If God had absolute power to do anything, as many sectarian assume (but which the Bible doesn't say), why did it take Him seven "days" to complete the earth? Why didn't He just "speak" the earth into existence with merely a thought? And if He had limitless power, why did He not just forgive mankind without there having to be an atonement? It's clear from scripture that, if true, we're not being given the complete picture.
Cold Steel
JoinedPosts by Cold Steel
-
13
undeserved kindness vs. grace
by nowwhat? inundeserved kindness means- you puny humans are irredemable and worthless, but because i am such a benevolent and magnanimous god.
i give you a way for salvation.
but you better keep working day in and day out for the rest of your miserable lives and perhaps i'll save you on my day of wrath.
-
-
-
17
Mr Trump looked in the Bible to see what's God view on "Torture"
by James Mixon inguess what, first book of the bible genesis 3:16 and he found other books that condones torture, exodus 7:3, numbers 31:17,18 and many more in that book.
so trump thought i have god's blessing..
-
-
Cold Steel
DJS » Most all of what Simon has said I have said many times on this site. Unchecked immigration can't be absorbed by any country on an ongoing basis. The US has been more than patient, generous and benevolent.
Yes, and the U.S. has major problem with population. Not too many people, but not enough to sustain the baby boomers who are expecting to get their Social Security, Medicare and other entitlements.
That said, Europe let in thousands of Muslim refugees and they have repaid their kindness by kicking their benefactors in the teeth: by posting their own rules based on Sharia Law, tearing down and threatening violence over Christmas decorations and overturning cars and setting them on fire. Is this something we need here?
We need Mexican influx because most are already Christian, they're hard working, and the ones I knew in southern California kept their Christmas lights on all year round. They had great food, too. So, who would I rather invest in? Hmmmm.
Mexicans. Any day. And even if we get good Muslims into the U.S., many times their children and grandchildren are radicalized. Many are good people, but we don't have a way of vetting them or telling who will decide to buy a gun and take out people at a shopping center. If we can keep the drug dealers out of the country, we can do okay with Mexican immigrants.
Besides, I don't want to give up my guns or my Christmas lights because some idiot decides to go jihad down the line. JWs don't like Christmas decorations, either, but they don't go out and kill people (unless they need blood transfusions!).
-
17
Mr Trump looked in the Bible to see what's God view on "Torture"
by James Mixon inguess what, first book of the bible genesis 3:16 and he found other books that condones torture, exodus 7:3, numbers 31:17,18 and many more in that book.
so trump thought i have god's blessing..
-
-
Cold Steel
Simon » Wait, you think Trump can read?
Well, I can, and none of the scriptures cited has anything to do with torture. Genesis 3:16 has to do with the divine decree regarding women and child birth. There is not a single scripture in the Bible having to do with torture.
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 7:3)
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)
Mr. Trump will have to search further if these are the verses he came up with.
-
210
Morality Without Deity
by cofty inone of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.
it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.
christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.
-
-
Cold Steel
Cofty » I want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality. It is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality. Christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.
But can't it be argued that none of these moralities exist in the absence of a God? Or that all morality in the absence of God is subjective? The problem is, there has to be standards to determine morality. There also has to be consequences, which holds morality together.
Can mankind establish a secular set of standards of morality? That's difficult. Anciently, Balaam told Balak, king of a Canaan people, that the only way to curse Israel was to lead them into wickedness. He himself had tried to curse Israel several times, but when he tried to curse Israel, only blessings came out. So, greedy for Balak's promised gratity, he told Balak the only way to destroy Israel was to destroy it from within. It worked, but when Israel eventually defeated Balak's military, they found Balaam, dragged him from a tent and killed him with a sword.
The same has happened today. Abortion, homosexuality, fornication (and soon to be paedophilia) -- all are excluded from man's objective immorality. Yet they will defile and destroy a nation as if there was no code of morality. Jesus noted that even the wicked love their families. He might also said they fight for their countries, refrain from stealing, be good and loyal friends. Certainly the Caananites didn't consider themselves evil, even when engaging in disgusting sexual practices and sacrificing their children to Moloch. So Christian morality will never be atheist or secular morality.
Yes, so-called Christianity murdered millions, but it was an apostate Christianity. Secular Nazism and communism murdered many more. Yet each had its own ethics quite removed from true Christianity.
-
28
A problem for believers
by Bugbear ina problem for believers!.
a majority of the world’s population acknowledge that they believe in a superior god or in their creator.
they also claim that they have got this special understanding and knowledge of his will and his law.
-
-
Cold Steel
Bugbear » A majority of the world’s population acknowledge that they believe in a superior God or in their creator. They also claim that they have got this special understanding and knowledge of his will and his law. None of these religious people can however [prove] that their God actual exists.
Religion isn't about proof. But it doesn't preclude evidence, either. I've found when I offer people evidence about religious things, they reject it. As someone once said, when someone asks for evidence, you can be sure evidence is the last thing they're interested in. It's the nature of every religious believer (and this includes atheists, who have a religious conviction as deep as any fundamentalist). People have their own beliefs and many adopt the religion they were born into. I believe that only by seeking God can one find him. But when it comes to proving there is no God, I've seen no evidence to do that. One can say, "I don't believe there's a God," but one cannot say they know God does not exist.
In the Bible, religion is based on people who said they saw God. Moses saw God, he said, and spoke face to face with him. Then seventy of the elders of Israel saw him. In my own religion, our own leaders have claimed to see him, and had the mininstration of angels. If my church leaders said (as do the Governing Body) that they had not heard from God, I wouldn't have anything to do with them. What good to me would they be?
If my church was a one man band, it would be one thing. But there are many prophets who to this day claim to communicate with God.
-
18
7th Day Adventist growth/decline stats similar to JWs
by fukitol inthe sda's are also getting most of their growth in africa and latin america but plateauing or declining in europe and parts of the western world.. what's also interesting is the sda leadership fronts up and attempts to explain why there is decline in some areas of the world (albeit somewhat disingenously), eg, on the link below from 2014. but the watchtower leaders have never tried to give any explanation for why membership is dramatically falling away in the western world.
increasingly worried jws are instead turning to other sources of information to try and understand why the 'true religion' is contracting.. http://news.adventist.org/en/all-news/news/go/2013-10-13/membership-nears-18-million-secretary-highlights-regions-of-growth-decline/.
-
-
Cold Steel
Although JWs and SDAs are both adventist sects, the LDS and SDAs are the results of alleged communication with heaven. The JWs and SDAs have similar doctrines because they come from common roots. As the paper noted, not surprisingly, the membership numbers of Mormons rose as the number of missionaries increased. At the same time, membership is declining in Europe while increasing in Central and South America, partially, no doubt, because of the Book of Mormon's alleged roots in these countries, and the decline of all religions in the face of secular atheism in Europe. This increase in atheism already is beginning to seep into American population centers.
-
18
7th Day Adventist growth/decline stats similar to JWs
by fukitol inthe sda's are also getting most of their growth in africa and latin america but plateauing or declining in europe and parts of the western world.. what's also interesting is the sda leadership fronts up and attempts to explain why there is decline in some areas of the world (albeit somewhat disingenously), eg, on the link below from 2014. but the watchtower leaders have never tried to give any explanation for why membership is dramatically falling away in the western world.
increasingly worried jws are instead turning to other sources of information to try and understand why the 'true religion' is contracting.. http://news.adventist.org/en/all-news/news/go/2013-10-13/membership-nears-18-million-secretary-highlights-regions-of-growth-decline/.
-
-
Cold Steel
The SDA problem is similar to the JW problem and it has to do with eschatological teachings not panning out. Unlike the JWs, the SDAs regard their founder as a prophet. Ellen G. White had a number of visions that became part of their canon. First, she had it revealed to her that the true sabbath was Saturday and that Christians had changed the times and the seasons. The sabbath has never changed to the first day of the week but had remained the seventh day, she said, and she had it revealed to her that the Antichrist was the Pope and that the end times would be preceded by the Pope gaining control of the nations of the earth, then passing "Sunday-only laws," and killing those who failed to comply. (Imagine the bunker video, but for SDAs instead of JWs.)
The Pope and the false prophet would take the nations of the earth down to Israel, where it would seek to take the city of Jerusalem by force, but they would be stopped in the valley of Armageddon and destroyed by the returning Christ.
Somehow this just didn't seem to be panning out as no one seems to care which day one worships on and no one has offered to hand over their standing armies over to the vatican. Even so, go to YouTube and enter "antichrist" and "pope." So some are still pitching it.
...
-
36
Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
-
-
Cold Steel
Your problem, Cofty, is you're a drive by, hit and run prevaricator. You're all form and no substance. When it comes to evolution you copy, paste and drone on forever. When it comes to religion, you merely attempt to bully and move on.
-
36
Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
-
-
Cold Steel
Animals did not sin, they have done nothing wrong.
You raise some outstanding points. In the same way, though, infants have done nothing wrong, nor have they sinned. One can argue that they learn nothing from their suffering and that's a valid point as well, but in the end we simply don't know what people or animals gain from life on Earth. My own personal belief is that in the beginning, a plan was formed, we agreed to it, the Earth was created, man fell purposely because he could not attain to the glory of God in the state he was placed in the Garden. This is something the Orthodox Church has repeatedly addressed. In short, as Father Kallistos Ware stated in his book, The Orthodox Way, "[God] became what we are, so as to make us what he is." (Page 97) He asks, "Should we look behind the fall and see God's act of becoming man as the fulfillment of man's true destiny?" And he states, "The Incarnation, then, is not simply a way of undoing the effects of original sin, but it is an essential stage upon man's journey from the divine image to the divine likeness." And while the Jehovah's Witnesses say only 144,000 receive this potential, other religions don't buy it.
They do not benefit or learn from their suffering and death in any way, do they?
We don't know, but if God is just and merciful, I'd say yes, absolutely. Not everything has been revealed, but as you noted, what a horrible injustice it would be be to create animals, make them suffer and require their very existence from them, then treat them as non-entitities, never to be seen or heard from again. Wouldn't it make more sense to create them as artificial intelligence, to mimic pain, suffering, love, affection and so forth? That way they wouldn't suffer at all. We would simply think they had suffered. Of course I don't believe that at all, but it would be better to do that than to make these creatures actual sentient beings, cause them pain, untold suffering, give them awareness and then discard them. How would this make God any less of a monster than ISIS? (A captured Jordanian pilot is put in a cage and burned to death by terrorists. But many Christians who condemned ISIS for this horrible deed had no trouble believing that this unfortunate Muslim pilot just kept right on burning in Hell because he was not a Christian. If true, God would be more of a monster than ISIS because his suffering would be eternal.)
You admit they experience emotions, and yet they don't have the intelligence that we do to read a holy book and find comfort and understanding of why they suffer, as many people do from their beliefs.
Yes, but there are many people who lack that same ability. We also don't need to understand these things in our own lives, either, because we either don't understand or believe our own holy books. Most of my own beliefs in this matter don't come from the Bible but from other scriptures you don't believe in. Some here don't believe in any holy book at all, but believe that all suffering is horrible and meaningless -- and that if there is a God, then He is heartless and a monster.
For years I've suffered from a bicycle accident that happened back in 2001. Every day I'm on painkillers, but I worked for NIH at the time, so I knew a lot of doctors. One day I asked one of them at the Pain and Palliative Care unit how people back in the 1800s dealt with such issues. He didn't say a word. He just turned his hand into a mug and tipped up to his lips as though drinking. Then he turned the mug into a pistol and pointed his finger at his temple and clicked his thumb. So personally I have to think there's a reason for suffering or there would be no reason for me to live. But I wouldn't needlessly addict suffering on any person or animal if I didn't think there was a purpose. If I did it, I would be a monster. And if God did it, He would be a monster. But I don't believe God is a monster.
They cannot even ask for help when they need it.
Not true. Most people with pets, most farmers with cattle, know animals can ask for help. My cat got very sick last year and I could tell by the way he acted and sounded that he was in pain and distress. This was reinforced when I brought up his cat carrier and he got right into it instead of heading in the opposite direction. He knows the carrier is for vet visits and, somehow, that it has something to do with his health. He came close to dying, but they saved him. Now the cat wants no part of the carrier.
Their suffering is unjustifiable.
But is that for us to decide? Either God exists or He doesn't. If He doesn't, man is simply engaging in polemics. If one is a Christian, one usually concedes that man doesn't have the whole picture -- that God has a more complete understanding than man. If religion is a sham, then man has the only picture, in which case not only is the pain and suffering of animals cruel and meaningless, the pain and suffering of all living creatures is cruel and meaningless. And if they're correct about there being no God, it becomes a situation of our not being able to do anything about it.
-
36
Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?
by defender of truth inthe following article will address these questions, and attempt to answer them.. after helping jwfacts with his page on animal suffering, i decided to write this article.. it is mainly aimed at helping jehovahs witnesses and other believers in god to think about the issue, as well as the apparent contradictions in watchtower teaching.. thanks must go to jwfacts for the encouragement, and giving me permission to use an image from his page and to use some of the quotes.. also, thankyou to cofty for general moral support.. please let me know what you think everybody, and feel free to reproduce any part or all of the article on any other website, just post and let me know that you've used it on your site please.. (i'd appreciate it if anyone could post to tell me they found a point in here useful, it would encourage me to keep going).. okay, here it is:.
why does god allow animal suffering?.
does it trouble you to see animals in pain?.
-
-
Cold Steel
Defender » Ok. If that is true, why has God allowed them to suffer?
The question, ultimately, must be that if humans have spirits, do animals likewise have spirits? Obviously this is only opinion as some people don't believe either humans or animals possess them.
Jehovah's Witnesses and other adventists believe even humans lack spirits. But if Jesus was put to death in the flesh, made alive in the spirit -- that is, departed his body as a spirit, and preached to the spirits in prison, it's a pretty good argument that man has a spirit. Peter writes:
“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Peter 3:18-21)
He later writes: “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6)
“Until Christ came,” says the Pistis Sophia, “no soul had gone through the ordinances in their completeness. It was He who opened the gate and the way of life. Those who receive these ordinances are the dispensations of the Sons of Light. And they receive whatever they desire.”
My point is that man actually does have a spirit residing within him, animating him, and so it makes sense that animals also have animating spirits. As Jesus stated, “The body without the spirit is dead.” (James 2:26) Thus, when he was put to death in the flesh, his spirit departed and went to Paradise, as he promised the thief on the cross/stake. Thus, when Origen, the first and greatest of the non-apostolic scholars, attempted to recall what the earliest Christians believed, he wrote: “After death, I think the saints go to Paradise, a place of teaching, a school of the spirits in which everything they saw on earth will be made clear to them. Those who were pure in heart will progress more rapidly, reaching the kingdom of heaven by definite steps or degrees.” (Jean Danielou, Biblica 28 (1947), Origen (N.Y.: Sheed and Ward, 1955)
My point is that spirits are eternal. They are the animating force in both man and beasts and are characterized by both intelligence and awareness, and they progress as we do. Animals experience love, hate, they have a healthy sense of self preservation, but, too, they've been known to selflessly sacrifice themselves for others, both animals and humans. Does God create intelligence only to then snuff it out when it no longer suits Him? “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other...." (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)
These animals serve us, die for us, serve as our companions and friends while others serve as food and beasts of burden. They were created with man and they differ in intelligence amongst themselves even as we differ amongst ourselves. And animals are provided to us as part of our stewardship to use as God dictates.
If we have spirits that animate us, and I think it's clear that the first century Christians believed this despite what adventist pundits claim, it stands to reason that animals must have some inner force that makes them go. If the body without the spirit is dead for humans, it stands to reason the same would be true for animals. The doctrine that the body goes back to the Earth and the core of what we are ceases to be at death may be fine for atheists, but it was never part of the Christian faith.
Now the reason God allows them to suffer is for the same reason He allows us to suffer. First, because both men and animals are eternal beings, suffering is our lot in life. It is because of the free agency of man and the limitations God has placed on Himself while we murder and enslave each other. Part of it's based on the fact that nothing on Earth can truly hurt us. We can suffer, die horrible deaths, but ultimately we're immortal beings that are incapable of being permanently scarred by what we suffer here. And according to Christian doctrine, Jesus, the manifestation of God in the flesh, suffered far worse in atoning for man's sins than anything He cold add us to suffer.
So these are my views. I hate to see animals or humans suffer and die, but I don't believe it's for naught.